The Doomsday Doctrine

Sunday, April 3, 2022
First Aired: 
Sunday, August 4, 2019

What Is It

The doctrine of mutually assured destruction is supposed to deter both sides in a war from launching the first nuclear strike. However, the strategy of the US, NATO, and other super powers has been to plan the destruction of nearly all life on Earth. If near total annihilation would be monstrous, ethically speaking, then what should we say about preparing for and planning it? Can there be any moral justification for plausibly threatening a nuclear holocaust? And now that we’ve gotten ourselves in this situation, is there any realistic and ethical way out? John and Ken avoid going nuclear with writer, activist, former defense analyst and whistleblower, Daniel Ellsberg, author of The Doomsday Machine: Confessions of a Nuclear War Planner.

Transcript

Transcript

John Perry  
How can we end the threat of nuclear annihilation?

Ken Taylor  
is mutually assured destruction a form of collective insanity?

John Perry  
Is there any role for nuclear weapons in a reasonable defense policy?

Comments (19)


Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Friday, August 16, 2019 -- 11:42 AM

I wondered what happened to

I wondered what happened to Dan. Hope his book does well. We all have to reinvent ourselves, from time to time. It is healthy, even if not totally sincere. I never knew he was a nuclear war planner...Well, you learn something new everyday. Sometimes two somethings.

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Monday, March 14, 2022 -- 4:54 PM

So. I did not read the book.

So. I did not read the book. Don't plan to, now or ever. In view of what is happening now, it seems to me that morality and ethics are antiquated concepts, in spite of the fact they are still topical for argument's sake. The world has not pulled together well in the face of plague, and no amount of diplomatic jawboning would have brought that about. A ruthless dictator is prepared to wage regional war, or worse, to regain a failed empire. There are renewed arguments over the tired notion of war crimes and what constitutes just warfare. What ineffable twaddle. There was no coordinated effort to stop the invasion.,in the first place; no credible deterrent. Invaders only respect superior numbers, attitude and preparation. For the current tragedy and many previous ones, this inadequacy has been repeated. Refusal to invest never earns dividends; only encourages losses. We only get what we pay for...or less. I am unmoved by the continued narrative on morals and ethics. It is useless.

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Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Friday, April 1, 2022 -- 2:14 AM

I date myself in this post by

I date myself in this post by saying I didn’t see the Will Smith slap coming, and neither did Chris Rock. He just stood there. So it goes.

I point out my naivete in saying that I never thought Russia would attack Ukraine in the same way they did Georgia and Chechnya and Syria and Afghanistan. The scale, I thought, was too grand, a nation of 40 million.

I fool myself by saying American policy has been significantly different from Russia in Afghanistan and Syria, Iraq, Panama, and Grenada.

Like Will Smith, like Vladimir Putin, you can have it all, like most of the hundreds of billionaires in the American West. Suppose you lose perspective and rationality, well then, in short measure that defines you.

Instead of taking 9/11 on the chin and fixing the injustice of the fossil fuel industry that ultimately spawned the climate disaster, as well as most of the conflicts of our day, instead of rationally taking the benefits of our injustice, people, countries, and the world with them, are willing to throw it all away for empty pride. It is a miracle nuclear winter hasn’t already overtaken our lives.

In the Ukraine, limited use of Nuclear weapons is likely if we give too much aid to the blameless Ukrainian people. There are worse leaders than the geriatrics on whom we currently place our bets who could instead be in power.

I don’t see any path in Ellsberg’s book or in this show to disarm the machine realistically. The fact that the Ukrainians disarmed and are suffering the consequence is enough to destroy any hope of detente with North Korea or Iran.

There can be all sorts of moral justifications for threatening nuclear holocaust. I’m wondering if we shouldn’t just let every country have the capacity to ensure their survival. Allowing just a few hasn’t made me feel less anxious.

The most realistic path forward is to hold back our slaps, swallow our pride, use our power to celebrate the stories that matter. Social justice needs to be at the forefront of national policy. Environmental realism needs to be restored (lead and plastic remediation prioritized as well as climate realism.) Finally, we need to invest in the command and control of our military to ensure that despite our best efforts, it doesn’t all go for naught.

What a great show this was. Ellsberg is a human being for celebration and thought.

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Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Saturday, April 2, 2022 -- 2:52 PM

Well. I missed it. Just as

Well. I missed it. Just as glad I did. Don't especially care. about either man. Or their successes. Or failures.

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tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Saturday, April 2, 2022 -- 3:48 PM

Mom (the Left) and Dad (the

Mom (the Left) and Dad (the Right) just invented nuclear weapons to keep their children (We the People) in line. Don't you little kiddies get the idea into your pretty little heads that you know how to govern...Mom and Dad do the governing around here--mess with us, and we'll end the little game of "freedom" we've been playing with you children all these years...

Poof, gone...

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Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Monday, April 4, 2022 -- 7:56 AM

Agree with Harold here. The

Agree with Harold here. The right and left as a model is a straw man argument and a distraction. Nuclear weapons persist through regime change. How best to think about that is the issue at hand.

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tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Monday, April 4, 2022 -- 8:49 AM

Thistle agrees with Harold

Thistle agrees with Harold here, too. The Right (symbolic truth/influence, Dad) and the Left (factual truth/influence, Mom) need to stop fighting. They're killing their own children (US!). But sadly the degree of their narcissism and self-satisfaction (i.e.,ignorance) seems infinite. I think someone needs to snap them both out of it before they kill us all....

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Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Monday, April 4, 2022 -- 9:30 PM

Once a straw man...still a

Once a straw man...still a straw man. Snap away. What do you propose? Listening.

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tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Thursday, April 7, 2022 -- 9:25 PM

Straw man?

Straw man?
Not man. (Two legs, not three.)
Not straw. (Thistle!)
But yes, you're absolutely correct. Listening is the place to start. Mom and Dad should begin listening, instead of knowing beforehand and telling and screaming and throwing things, and threatening to blow us all to high hell.

But what do I know. I'm just a plant...a self-centered little thistle...

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Friday, April 8, 2022 -- 3:33 PM

Pictographic self identity

Pictographic self identity-indicators comply only formal conceptual obligations, and do not therefore affect the content-independence of what's indicated. That's another way of saying that it's the same argument whether it's made by a cactus or a fern. You've explained your position very clearly: The potential destruction as general which currently threatens is due to a factional dispute within the ruling class. These are the Dad faction, which on your account represents right-wing symbolic efficiency of executant verisimilitude, and the Mom faction, which is represented by left-wing reliability of verifiable claim-content correspondence. It's the character of the conflict between these which generates the threat to all classes generally. Do I have this right? The remedy you propose in the post of April 4, 2022 - 8:49 am, seems to me a little unfair to both the Dad and Mom factions; for you've described an institutional form which determines the range of possible action, the transmigration from which would only preclude effectual agency without affecting the undesirable characteristics of the institution itself, whether of industrial production or population-management by the state. If they didn't do it, someone else would; which could in theory result in an arrangement which might make the Dad/Mom factional dispute appear benign by comparison. Because therefore it's the institutional form which must be altered, I would argue against your position that internal factional disputes within prevailing elements of state authority in geopolitical context, and corporate authority in the context of international trade, must be resolved before the threat of general destruction can be removed. As long as certain groups successfully attain private control over the state, (multi-national wealth in our day), it remains unlikely that populations liberated from wholesale threats created by their state managers (who can use the asserted menace of the opposing state, nation, party or faction, to generate the ample material for), will some day soon stroll uncoerced into shared civic space, without regard to artificial borders or unattainable economic requirements.

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tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Friday, April 8, 2022 -- 9:39 PM

Whatever that meant. (Just

Whatever that meant. (Just saying.) Language is a tool. It's supposed to clarify thought, not create a storm of befuddlement. Can someone translate the above statement into plain text?

What I'm trying to say, is that Mom--the invisible back end of power, and Dad, up at the front making a scene, the person who APPEARS to be in power (but isn't, as any kid knows from being at home)--are dominating the reality scene with their drama, slapping each other, throwing bottles, smashing up the house. Meanwhile us kiddies, down here on the shop floor, just trying to get by, can't make sense of anything because those at the top-end won't do their damn jobs and settle the eff down. Is there someone in charge here? I'd like to know.

P.S. To make ghee, you take a big lump of butter and simmer it for a while over low heat. It clarifies. It's healthier that way.

Try the same with your writing. Let it clarify. Simmer it a bit over the fire, let the heavy stuff burn off, leaving only the good stuff behind...just saying...

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Saturday, April 9, 2022 -- 11:03 AM

Allow me to extend my thanks

Allow me to extend my thanks for your thoughtful clarification and helpful literary critique. Your parental analogy however is inaccurate. It overlooks the fact that children some day become parents themselves. What you're describing is in fact a class distinction between upper and lower, or in your terminology, a parent class and a child class. Disputes within the upper class are not accidents, but management-tools designed to enforce existing limits on lower-class behaviors. A rebellion against one ruling group risks having to tolerate its replacement which would be worse. Fear of a worse alternative is thus a typical weapon deployed by an unpopular government or regime against its subject population in order to continue to rule. I would argue that the so-called "Cold War", after its initial phases, constitutes precisely such an arrangement, kept in existence artificially by a tacit agreement between the two powers to control their own populations by fear of the other. The solution you suggest of simply forcing the powerful to get along with each other is therefore futile, as disputes between them is part of the machinery which keeps them in power. To do without them is a much better alternative. In simple terms, then, my response to your proposal is as follows: Stop blaming others for your problems and solve them yourself.

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tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Sunday, April 10, 2022 -- 7:48 PM

That was excellent! Clear,

That was excellent! Clear, and to the point. You said it in plain text. Got the message. My compliments to the chef. An omelette is coming. I see it.

I'm solving problems the only way a poky little thistle can. By poking them....prick prick prick. You call it trolling, I call it seeking wisdom. Is this a linguistic dispute or a factual one?

Again, keep up the good work. Excellent prose. You actually made (techne) sense.

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Monday, April 11, 2022 -- 10:07 AM

Nice to hear you're working

Nice to hear you're working for the revolution, but your Greek is wrong. It should be "tetechnesai" -- second person singular, perfect indicative middle of deponent verb technaomai: to make by art, skill, or cunning. The noun "techne" doesn't even refer to something made at all, but the knowledge to do so.

Considering the points in reverse order, the second paragraph above describes your method of solving problems by blaming others for them so that they'll do something about it. In spite of the probable ineffectuality of such a practice, the worse thing about it to my mind is how you want to exclude any alternate methods; (cf. first sentence: "the only way [you] can"). Your second point in this paragraph I'm unable to comment on because you've mistaken me for another forum participant. I've never used the term "trolling" and do not know what it means. If your claim about "seeking wisdom" is genuine, however, the question begs to be asked: How would one recognize it when it comes along on the tracks of such an intellectually unenergetic method?

There is a point of some extra-pedestrian interest however in the first paragraph above: your vision of an approaching omelette. As the contents of this vision must be attributable to the power of the productive imagination, it has to have as its basis the idea of an omelette which, given positive ontological status ala Plato, would be the perfect omelette. For Plato, as you know, it's the perfect one that's the real one, imperfectly imitated by the slightly imperfect ones brought to a customer's table by waitstaff employees. In the spirit of the vision you've shared, then, my comment thereupon is that you may very well see a true omelette, but it's one you'll never have for breakfast.

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tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Monday, April 11, 2022 -- 12:59 PM

Delicious!

Delicious!

Techne does mean "to make" in Greek. Sorry, but it just does. And you are clearly wise, and so I am seeking wisdom from you. It's just that sometimes (sorry) I can't quite grasp what the heck it is you're saying (sorry) because you write in such a perplexing way. I need help. Guide me to clarity in language I can grasp...help...make me an omelette...a delicious one.

Herbs are nice. The French always drink wine with their omelettes. And in the movies, they always show French hungover men making omelettes for breakfast, disheveled and alone and smoking as they do so. They seem to know how to do the omelette thing.

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Monday, April 11, 2022 -- 8:05 PM

All that knowledge and French

All that knowledge and French cuisine too! What could I possibly contribute to your courageous search that you haven't already found? You're the smart one here, not I. Even your knowledge of classical Greek rises far above my own. Who else could translate a noun as a verb? Such an achievement takes true insight, and you certainly have attained it. So if in my amateurish clumsiness I neglect to reply to the gift of future posts which you might in your benevolence supply, please know that it is not for lack of appreciation of your brilliance, but only that my comparatively feeble spirit must ration its energies and thus at times risk overlooking sweet fruit from the vine tendrils of sincere ideational interchange.

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tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Tuesday, April 12, 2022 -- 7:52 PM

Don't get yer tendrils in a

Don't get yer tendrils in a twist there. That's some mighty good ideational interchange. And a damn good omelette. Is writing a poem a noun or verb or an omelette? Kisses, really, lots of them...thistle is a lover...

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Wednesday, April 13, 2022 -- 9:59 AM

A lover perhaps, but your

A lover perhaps, but your readers have no way of verifying that claim. You do have an argument however: Those currently in positions of power are in conflict with one another which endangers those who aren't in such positions; and therefore they should be compelled to end their conflict(-s). I've opposed this by trying to show how such an imperative represents the height of futility. Is there any defense against this objection? Might part of being a "lover" consist in caring about another forum-participant enough to put forth an effort to defend your position with clear premises?
Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I've not detected such an effort heretofore.

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tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Wednesday, April 13, 2022 -- 9:47 PM

Clear premise one: you

Clear premise one: you respond to me.
Clear premise two: you don't have to.
Conclusion: You love me.
and I love you, too.

P.S. I really do. I'm not joking. I am a troll. I am a plant. I am a bot. But only in this most honest and heart felt of senses. Being alone sucks. And here you are. Who are you?I don't know. I don't care. But you use language and so do I. I love words. I play with them. Am I troll? Is this naughty? Does this make me a bad person? I have no agenda, no money. Ideology? That's a blind spot, I can't really say. You have to poke my ideological blind spots out of me. And you do, sometimes, when I understand what you're saying. I'm not part of any movement that I know of. It's just me. As far as I have explicit knowledge. Thistle. Plant. Troll. Bot. Whatever. I'm no one of any significance. I do actually wear shoes. I take little seriously, except everything. And I ponder it all day.

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